Nic- the person who wrote that article stated those words about "devil whorshipping" - sorry I should have changed those words out. I did not utter those words.

IF YOU READ Firebirds posts, you would have seen that this was HER post that I changed the words to direct back at her for saying those things against me!. I don't like it either when she she rants and raves.

I have Catholic friends and they sure don't act like her. I totally admire some of the wonderful Catholics, like Mother Teressa. But doesn't change the fact that I believe quite alot of your traditions and sacraments are wrong. We are here to bring unbelievers to the saving grace of Jesus Christ, not demand that the beliefs of their religions are all wrong because they aren't RC. That is very arrogant. Jesus started a Church of Believers in him, not an organization. When we think that a Church is more important than a soul- then something is wrong.

Firebird, you keep posting statements condemming TV Evangelists that are fleecing innocent people and yet say nothing about your RC heirarchy. Not condeming them for instituting the Doctrine of Indulgences , selling relics and selling Bishopopricks .Purgatory where you can buy a lesser sentence for someone there. All of these are documented of your denomination. Chicanary is condemned by God no matter what name is on the front door of the church. Filthy lucre is filthy lucre , it cannot be cleaned up. dajcat

[quote=kspletzer]Jesus didn't talk to you nor give you His instructions that you are falsely teaching here.
Who are you addressing this post to? If I didn't see your name alongside it, I would have thought dajcat wrote it. It is confusing, poorly constructed, with two conversations running into each other and hardly sounding intelligent! It seems to be typical of his anti-Catholic babble. And you appear to have caught the same bug!

BTW, did you start knitting socks for the homeless yet? It is beginning to get cold and they need Christian love and charity. Don't forget that by doing so, you will be storing up treasures in heaven by taking care of the least of them as Christ did.

Otherwise you might end up where the hot oven is. You know that place - it is reserved for Catholic bashing liars and deceivers. Christ hates liars. So I urge you to show Christian love and charity right from the heart, especially for the homeless, since you fail to show any on this thread.

C & p from anti-Catholic writings do not tell the truth about our beliefs. It is your rigid, frigid, fundamentalist indoctrination that causes you to act out your hate and bitterness towards Catholics.

You appear to have flunked moral theology, early Christian history, critical thinking and perhaps English classes, since you are having difficulty expressing yourself coherently and logically. Teaching Catholicism from your ignorance and ANTI-CATHOLIC BIAS will not get you raptured into the clouds, no matter how many times you bounce up and down shouting Jesus is my personal Savior!

I'll do one better- here is her quote---

"quote=kspletzer]Jesus didn't talk to you nor give you His instructions that you are falsely teaching here.
Who are you addressing this post to? If I didn't see your name alongside it, I would have thought dajcat wrote it. It is confusing, poorly constructed, with two conversations running into each other and hardly sounding intelligent! It seems to be typical of his anti-Catholic babble. And you appear to have caught the same bug! "

This where I got it-- FROM YOU!
"Jesus didn't talk to you nor give you His instructions that you are falsely teaching here. And it is just as well, since you can't handle the truth. You prefer fairy tales. Moreover, Jesus appointed an authoritative Church to administer the saving ordinances, perfect the saints, call us to repentance and preach and teach ALL THAT HE TAUGHT. You don't from your limited Bible only belief from the KJV which is full of errors and lacks the 7 Books that Luther threw out. All Christ's teachings are not in the Bible. John 21:25. Nor is Christ's Church your fragmented 39,000 denominations of believers which came after the reformation. Your teachings from your Baptist polemics can never tell the truth about Christ's teachings. Because telling the truth is admitting you are Catholic. So inventing stories to cover the gaps in your beliefs, is part of your Baptist practice. Getting a reality check on this thread might calm your ruffled feathers. For you have been quite high strung, disturbed, agitated, throwing tantrums, disputing over the word HATE when you could have easily looked the word up in a dictionary and thesaurus and confused about historical facts."

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For Catholics, a Door to Absolution Is Reopened


Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times
Karen Nassauer, left, and Octavia Andrade at church in Queens. Indulgences are being offered at churches in New York City.



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By PAUL VITELLO
Published: February 9, 2009

The announcement in church bulletins and on Web sites has been greeted with enthusiasm by some and wariness by others. But mainly, it has gone over the heads of a vast generation of Roman Catholics who have no idea what it means: “Bishop Announces Plenary Indulgences.”
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Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times
George E. Bush Jr. at Our Lady Queen of Martyrs Church in Queens. Catholics are debating the modern relevance of indulgences.



In recent months, dioceses around the world have been offering Catholics a spiritual benefit that fell out of favor decades ago — the indulgence, a sort of amnesty from punishment in the afterlife — and reminding them of the church’s clout in mitigating the wages of sin.

The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world.

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.”

Like the Latin Mass and meatless Fridays, the indulgence was one of the traditions decoupled from mainstream Catholic practice in the 1960s by the Second Vatican Council, the gathering of bishops that set a new tone of simplicity and informality for the church. Its revival has been viewed as part of a conservative resurgence that has brought some quiet changes and some highly controversial ones, like Pope Benedict XVI’s recent decision to lift the excommunications of four schismatic bishops who reject the council’s reforms.

The indulgence is among the less noticed and less disputed traditions to be restored. But with a thousand-year history and volumes of church law devoted to its intricacies, it is one of the most complicated to explain.

According to church teaching, even after sinners are absolved in the confessional and say their Our Fathers or Hail Marys as penance, they still face punishment after death, in Purgatory, before they can enter heaven. In exchange for certain prayers, devotions or pilgrimages in special years, a Catholic can receive an indulgence, which reduces or erases that punishment instantly, with no formal ceremony or sacrament.

There are partial indulgences, which reduce purgatorial time by a certain number of days or years, and plenary indulgences, which eliminate all of it, until another sin is committed. You can get one for yourself, or for someone who is dead. You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day.

It has no currency in the bad place.

“It’s what?” asked Marta de Alvarado, 34, when told that indulgences were available this year at several churches in New York City. “I just don’t know anything about it,” she said, leaving St. Patrick’s Cathedral at lunchtime. “I’m going to look into it, though.”

The return of indulgences began with Pope John Paul II, who authorized bishops to offer them in 2000 as part of the celebration of the church’s third millennium. But the offers have increased markedly under his successor, Pope Benedict, who has made plenary indulgences part of church anniversary celebrations nine times in the last three years. The current offer is tied to the yearlong celebration of St. Paul, which continues through June.

Dioceses in the United States have responded with varying degrees of enthusiasm. This year’s offer has been energetically promoted in places like Washington, Pittsburgh, Portland, Ore., and Tulsa, Okla. It appeared prominently on the Web site of the Diocese of Brooklyn, which announced that any Catholic could receive an indulgence at any of six churches on any day, or at dozens more on specific days, by fulfilling the basic requirements: going to confession, receiving holy communion, saying a prayer for the pope and achieving “complete detachment from any inclination to sin.”

But in the adjacent Archdiocese of New York, indulgences are available at only one church, and the archdiocesan Web site makes no mention of them. (Cardinal Edward M. Egan “encourages all people to receive the blessings of indulgences,” said his spokesman, Joseph Zwilling, who said he was unaware that the offer was not on the Web site, but would soon have it posted.)

The indulgences, experts said, tend to be advertised more openly in dioceses where the bishop is more traditionalist, or in places with fewer tensions between liberal and conservative Catholics.

“In our diocese, folks are just glad for any opportunity to do something Catholic,” said Mary Woodward, director of evangelization for the Diocese of Jackson, Miss., where only 3 percent of the population is Catholic.

Even some priests admit that the rules are hard to grasp.

“It’s not that easy to explain to people who have never heard of it,” said the Rev. Gilbert Martinez, pastor of St. Paul the Apostle Church in Manhattan, the designated site in the New York Archdiocese for obtaining indulgences. “But it was interesting: I had a number of people come in and say, ‘Father, I haven’t been to confession in 20 years, but this’ ” — the availability of an indulgence — “ ‘made me think maybe it wasn’t too late.’ ”

Getting Catholics back into confession, in fact, was one of the motivations for reintroducing the indulgence. In a 2001 speech, Pope John Paul described the newly reborn tradition as “a happy incentive” for confession.
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This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: February 13, 2009
A picture caption on Tuesday with an article about the reintroduction of the indulgence, a form of amnesty from punishment in the afterlife, in Roman Catholic churches misstated the given name of a worshiper at a church in Queens. She is Octavia Andrade, not Olivia.

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Past Coverage
For Catholics, a Door to Absolution Is Reopened (February 10, 2009)
For Catholics, a Door to Absolution Is Reopened (February 10, 2009)
POPE BENEDICT XVI: NEWS ANALYSIS; Big To-Do List For an Insider (April 20, 2005)
John F. Hotchkin, 66, a Leader Of Catholic Ecumenical Efforts (July 9, 2001)

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HOME / faith-based: Religion, spirituality, and sacrilege.

The Bone Collectors (page 2)
It's time to bring relics back to the Catholic Church.
By David Farley
Posted Tuesday, Oct. 20, 2009, at 12:08 PM ET
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Broomer's relics usually come primarily from obscure saints—especially early martyrs—because they're more likely to be authentic. The superstar saints—St. Francis of Assisi, St. Catherine of Siena—are the most counterfeited. But that doesn't mean pious pieces of the most precious individuals in Christianity haven't come through her door: the Virgin Mary's breast milk, baby Jesus' swaddling clothes, a thorn from the Crown of Thorns, a sliver of wood from Christ's manger, a strand of the Virgin Mary's hair, Joseph's walking stick, and various parts of the Apostles.
Relics are not just body parts. Saints also had possessions. They wore clothes and jewelry. They touched things. Eventually, the Catholic Church put in place a system for classifying relics: A first-class relic was a body part of a saint; a second-class relic was a saint's possession; a third-class relic was an object that had touched a first-class relic; and a fourth-class relic—the least valuable but the easiest to produce—was an object that had touched a second-class relic.
Though holy relics may still have their place in modern spirituality, they represent a time when saints were posthumous medieval rock stars, pilgrims their devout groupies and monks their roadies. In medieval Europe, the quest for salvation pervaded every breath and movement and thought of the devout. For the faithful, praying to a saint's relic was like a direct line to saints who acted as intercessors for God, VIP residents of heaven who could cause miracles and help prayers be answered. The faithful often prayed at saints' tombs or in front of their relics displayed inside churches. But there were also private relic collections in the Middle Ages. Charlemagne, as pious as he was powerful, had a vast collection of relics (including, some say, the holy foreskin). Charles IV, the 14th-century Holy Roman emperor, held an annual relics show at his home base in Prague to show off his collection of curios (of which the pièce de résistance was the breast of Mary Magdalene). A couple of centuries later, Renaissance Prince Albrecht of Brandenburg had a stock of saintly remains so huge that a tireless pilgrim could have accrued a remission from purgatory of 39,245,120 years.

Today Broomer has a roster of regular clients, many of whom are not princes or potentates; they're mostly middle class, male, and gay. Some attended seminary before they dropped out of the church or were intentionally scorned. Others belong to the clergy or are officially connected to the church.
One of those clients in the latter category is the Rev. Paul Halovatch, a chaplain in Connecticut, who has been collecting relics for 30 years. Among his 100 or so holy curios are a piece of the post Christ was whipped on, a chunk of Christ's crib, and 10 pieces of the True Cross. He'll bring out a relic of a saint on that saint's feast day and bless people. He purchases relics from Broomer in an attempt to "rescue" them from falling into the wrong hands, which he claims they can easily do.
Perhaps churches will stop shedding their collections—and start building them back up. One small church in Iowa, St. Donatus, recently moved a relic from the church museum to an altar in a side chapel in the church, back in the place where it was originally intended. Which means there's at least one church I can now walk into and ask what relic they have at the altar, and I'll get more than just a shrug.
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The Bone Collectors: It's time to bring relics back to the Catholic Church.

David Farley is the author of An Irreverent Curiosity: In Search of the Church's Strangest Relic in Italy's Oddest Town.

Photograph of rosary beads and Bible by Getty Creative Images.



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Where might this accusation be? This statement proves my point, perfectly. Thank you

I can see nothing's changed, Fiona. I'm headding off to see New Moon with the girls and then off to work. THEN off to my 10th graders. I think I'll make it independent prayer and study day. Or in other words. I'm going to be in NO SHAPE to teach this sunday but it's a great day to get caught up!

Thinking of making an Advent project with the kids.

I agree. This is starting to be a Hostile Faith Environment. It's Harassment really. I think I will speak to Mike. I have to call them about switching to faster speeds though so what the hey.

It's amazing that NO one can share without the constant harassment. No one can share or ask without the constant rhetoric and sheep stealing. It's like they want Jesus on Steroids or something. How hateful! Next thing you know we'll have a smiley face to the left of our reply post pages that is tied to a burning stake! I was never a big fan of danrael here, but have you noticed that Rob hasn't posted here in a while? Henni? Lots of folks left. It just got too stuffy. They think it's some battle and they won..when really it was quite rude and hostile behavior. One plays the innocent goodwife, the other one just a joyful bible beater and the other one their family mutt, dont care who's leg he pees on. I took these folks to be genuine caring people who just follows the bible. They preach that only in the bible is the true living Word.....yet they dont live it! I know pagans who show more care! What a slap! Sick!

I've even told Jerry I dont really believe a lick of what his mormonism teaches him, but I can respect him for how he goes about it here. That speaks volumes and ....((gasp)) I still believe the way I do! Holy moly! Immagine that! Such stupid rhetoric.

You seriously can't post anything without being hounded.

I dont kow about sand being sifted out of rome? But its' surely sifting out from underneath the feets of those that keep this crap up.

One of my favorite songs was "The Gift of Love" it goes by St. Paul's verses about if I have no love my words are like a clanging cymbal.

Here's my adivce to those that wish to post more on this or other threads. Practice what you Preach...or shut the hell up. Think about it.

Thank you.

Ok. Sorry. Carry on.

[quote=kspletzer]Jesus didn't talk to you nor give you His instructions that you are falsely teaching here.
You are NEVER ABLE TO PROVE that I am teaching falsely. I show historical and scriptural evidence from provable sources.
You can only show your horse puckey and snake oil from your Bible College.

And it is just as well, since you can't handle the truth. You have your limited Bible belief from your ancient stories forced on you by Popes and the ADDED books of your Bible.
Oh yes, I can handle it fine, thank you. That is why I am here shredding your lies to pieces with historical facts from renowned Protestant and Catholic scholars and even Luther's writings, which you are clueless about even though you subscribe to his unscriptural sola scriptura doctrine. These scholars engage brain and reason. You can't because you are obsessed with your endless c & p, and distraught over the doctrinal instability of your Baptist denominations. Catholics hear the OT & NT readings daily which are the same at every Mass throughout the world. At the end of three years, we will have heard every reading in the OT/NT which is a far more substantial claim than you can ever make. We have a far more expansive understanding our Bible than you will ever have, since we are supported by the teaching Magesterium and apostolic Oral Traditions of the Church. Thank you for helping to point out that inconvenient fact to you. I am able to squish your silly claims every time you make them because you don't read what you post. You call me mean. Yet you have proved to be the most bigoted, mean-spirited and hate-filled woman engaging in the most destructive and detestable behavior towards Catholics.

Lean about our Mass instead of the lies you are spoon-fed. Our Mass is our sacrifice which we offer to God. It is pleasing to Him because it is the Body and Blood of Our Lord. We offer that sacrifice at every hour from dawn to dusk throughout the world, just as Melchizedek did in the OT. Our Mass is described in the Book of Revelation. Your bigotry tells you that our Pope is the anti-Christ but you have never been able to say which one. You also say that the RCC is the Whore of Babylon but you don't have proof from scripture - just your opinions which you get from peering into your crystal ball.

You have no foundation in history, or in moral theology. All your posts are biased opinions laced with anti-Catholic hostility. When your arguments collapse, your only defense is to launch a volley of insults, and mock, taunt and jeer with more false accusations. I can understand why you have nothing intelligent to offer readers. That is why you stoop to calling us devil worshipers. No, you are not grown up for admitting your mistake. You are childish for slinging your mud-pies along with dajcat, and then throwing a tantrum when confronted. Your anti-Catholic behavior is obvious and deplorable.

Your purported facts are from blind guides. Protestant historians confirm that all our books have always been a part of the Bible. Even Luther confirmed that he owed much to the Catholic Church and to the papacy. He admitted in his writings that he wanted to remove even more books from the Bible than he did before. The Council of Trent ratified the earlier Councils' decisions about our OT/NT canons to keep all our books in the Bible. You historical recall is lacking in factual details. Your Bible is butchered and has many errors in it. That is why those heretical versions were burned so you wouldn't continue to spread errors. Your Bible is also missing seven books and there are changes/additions/deletions made by Luther. Your ignorance of these facts is painful. You pretend you know what you are talking about when you are ignorant of the facts. You follow a false religion that is a recent invention.

All Christ's teachings are in the Bible.
Rubbish. Your pastor and Bible College forgot to tell you that there is only one truth. It is God’s truth, and it is not all in the Bible.
Jn 21:25, Is. 55:10-11; Lk 3:2-3; Lk 4:42-44; 5:1, Lk 8:11-15; Jn 1:1, 14; Acts 4:31, 1 Thess 2:13, Heb 4:12-13, Heb 11:3. These verses are all part of God's Word that not everything is in the Bible. Your Baptist ideology is short on facts and long on lies and denials. It is time you learned to follow God's truth, instead of still sucking milk from your reformers' doctrines. You insinuate that all these Scripture writers are liars, slanderers and deceivers like yourself! You willfully ignore those verses I posted many times. You make a sham of your Bible only belief. How easy it is to trash your post with scriptural and historical facts. And all you can give as a rejoinder is more fairy tales! How pathetic after claiming you went to Bible College for three years. Evidently, you haven't learned much there that is true.

Because telling the false truths is admitting you are Catholic. So inventing doctrines to cover the gaps in your beliefs, is part of your RCC practice.....Your Church has done many hurtful things to people and you are leading many to Hell.
Don't pretend to be knowledgeable about our doctrines when your own formation is poor. Foolish claims invite strong rebuttals to your pseudo-historical claims. I am proud to be a Catholic and am able to refute your Baptist fallacies! I am proud of our Christ-centered Eucharistic worship, our religious ceremonies and our glorious Catholic Saints which your pastor and Bible College hid from you. I am proud of the treasures of my faith and am able to embrace the good and bad parts of it. You can't and you only have an empty faith that is outer-focused! Hence the demented Catholic bashing! You invent myths to cover the 1500 year gap from Pentecost to the time your religion was founded. I am happy that this thread brought those truths to light so others can see that you follow a false religion and false prophet. No Pope ever forced anything on me. That is all in your fantasies. I am free to love and serve God by obeying Him through the teaching Church He gave me. You worship your Bible, your self-will and your opinions, above what Christ taught. Your beliefs are quite shallow and you are needy of attention. That is why you hang around here and post nonsense to get a reaction. Don't look now but your moral slip is showing!