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 Rank: Queen  Joined: 9/30/2009 Posts: 759 Location: WV
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Are you satisfied with the manna which came down from heaven? ------------------------------------------------------ Where again is this heaven you talk about? Given the three tiered universe thought to exist (heaven, earth, hell) in early biblical times, it made sense to think in terms of heaven being a place above the blue sky. But, since we know the earth is nearly spherical there is no unique ’up’. Further, since the universe is vast (millions of light years across) it is unlikely that God has a place to live out there; let alone have a throne to sit on to watch and intervene in human affairs such as drop manna on the earth for his favored children to eat in their time of travail. Why would a loving God chose to favor one group of His children over another group of His children? Doesn’t it make more sense that God resides within each of us? And, that he shows Himself through our love for one another? You know, "Do unto others...." When I works, I works hard. When I sits and thinks, I goes to sleep.
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 Rank: King  Joined: 11/16/2008 Posts: 1,660
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Quote: Originally posted by dajcat on 02 October 2009
I copied this from a church bulletin
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When the church began on earth, the CEO was being executed as a criminal. The chairman of the board was out cursing and swearing that he had never been part of it. The Treasurer committed suicide. Most of the rest of the board members had scattered. About the only ones that showed any signs of faithfullness were some members of the Women’s Auxiliary.
The World at its worst needs the church at its best.
anonymous
That is great, David!
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Rank: King Joined: 6/6/2008 Posts: 2,167
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the words of Jesus.IN MY FATHERS HOUSE ARE MANY MANSIONS, I GO TO PREPARE A ROOM FOR YOU AND I WILL COME AGAIN AND TAKE YOU WHERE I AM ALSO.John14: 2-3
The words of the angel at the ASCENSION (going up)THIS SAME JESUS WHICH IS TAKEN UP WILL APPEAR IN LIKE MANNER. Acts 1:11
the words of Paul. I KNEW A MAN ONCE EITHER IN THE FLESH OR IN THESPIRIT I NO NOT ,THAT WAS TAKEN UP INTO THE THIRD HEAVEN. 2Cor 12:2
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dcollom youare trying to rationalize your concept of heaven with the mind of man. That is impossible.
It has been stated before that man originally (and it is not far fetched ) that there were indeed three
heavens. The blue sky above us, the atmosphere immediatlly out of the pull of gravity and outerspace.
I have forgotten the names but I know one was the tropisphere, ionisphere the second. In any event this is what Paul was talking about. It is believed even by Christians today that God’s dwelling place is in the third heaven, far from earth. It cannot be proved we will just have to wait and find out.
The Mormons have taken it one step further and teach there are three compartments to heaven. The GOOD the BAD, and the UGLY. They teach that when we die if we have been good we will go and be with God in the GOOD compartment, if not so good in the BAD and if down right rotten in the UGLY part of heaven.
The RCC teaches that we must go through a further cleansing of our sins in a place called Purgatory before we can enter heaven. Even if we confess our sins and are forgiven by God that is not enough. I believe the rationale behind that is we may die without confessing our last sin and God will not have a chance to forgive us. I could be wrong about that.
Other faiths do not believe in a ugly (hell)place but believe in total annahialation of our existence.
Jesus did not teach this but taught a literal hell where the fire never goes out and your thirst is never quenched. Mark9:43-45
So Dcollom take you pick. Are you be satisfied with the Manna that came down from heaven or will you continue to look elswhere.?
Have a good God week and may His Spirit enter your very being.
dajcat
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Rank: King  Joined: 10/6/2009 Posts: 3,009 Location: Circleville,Ohio
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Not exact words but as close as I can remember off hand.When I found you.You were laying in a pool of blood unwanted and unloved.I took you up and washed you and cleansed you.The Lord was talking about Abraham.THAT IS WHY!!!Martin Sharrett
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Rank: King  Joined: 12/26/2005 Posts: 1,617
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Davids description of the Mormon concept of heaven, is lacking in accuracy.
There are 3 degrees of glory. 1. Celestial. This is for those who will have the presence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. 2. Terrestrial. This Kingdom of Glory is for those who would not partake of the fullness of the Gospel of Christ. Those who were blinded by the craftiness of men and led to believe false teachings, but are otherwise good and honorable. These will be cut off forever form the presence of God but will still have the presence of Christ and the Holy Ghost. 3. Telestial. This is also a Kingdom of Glory and those who inherit it will be those who rejected Christ, those rapists robbers, murderers, adulterers, etc. They will be forever cut off from God and Christ but will still be administered to by the Holy Ghost. Lastly there is a kingdom that is not a kingdom of glory and is reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, these are they who are cast into outer darkness.
Jerry
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Rank: King Joined: 6/6/2008 Posts: 2,167
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So what is the difference between yours and my description? The difference is that the Holy Spirit and Jesus will have no part in any compartment except the one where God sits. What a crock of nonsense you believe in. You are telling us that the Holy Ghost will have fellowship with thieves rapists, murderers and the like.? He has no fellowship with them here why then heaven? You have a very low estimation of God’s holiness Jerry. The bible talks about only two places, heaven and hell. God gives us plenty of time here on earth to make a choice. The bible states that MAN HAS BUT ONE LIFE TO LIVE AND THEN THE JUDGMENT.
you insult God with your nonsense.
dajcat
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Rank: King Joined: 6/6/2008 Posts: 2,167
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Martin I haven’t a clue what you were trying to say in your thread. Please elaborate.
david
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Rank: King Joined: 10/6/2009 Posts: 3,009 Location: Circleville,Ohio
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Someone said why were the Jews picked out over other people?my answer
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Rank: King  Joined: 10/7/2009 Posts: 2,051
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Quote: Originally posted by dajcat on 04 October 2009
Manna
Are you satisfied with the manna which came down from heaven?
The manna He gives us will never stink nor have maggots in it....We need it fresh every morning.
we find i tin the pages of the bible. "your word is like honey in my mouth"
I find nothing in the Bible to support this theory of yours. Cherry-picking a couple of Scripture verses to expound on your opinion does not guarantee that Jesus’ manna is in the Bible. There are no ancient writings to support this opinion of yours.
Some have decided that the manna He gave us and gives us is not sufficient so they have tried to add to His recipe by adding ingredients that only cause it to stink earlier.....You can pray to saints, His atonment was not and is not sufficient, you must work for your salvation, grace is not sufficient, you need to be further cleansed before you can enter heaven.
Yup - those "Some" you mention, actually compiled the Bible - the Book you quote from. That is how good their decisions were because they were guided by the Holy Spirit to only one truth, not a multitude of conflicting opinions. And you are using this Book to deny that those "Some" knew what Jesus taught, and you are implying that you know more than they ever did. You ignore their lives of great holiness and sanctity and that they gave up their lives to give you the truth they received from Jesus and His Apostles. That is much more meritorious in God’s eyes than the futile efforts you engage in to deny their teachings.
Please review what I said in my FIRST SERMONETTE TO YOU ON P. 7 of this thread. Neither Christ or His earliest followers had a Bible as you know it today. Nor were all their teachings mentioned in the Bible.
The Bible warns us not to use personal opinions since they are subject to error. There is only one truth - God’s truth and it is not all in the Bible.
Jn 21:25, Is. 55:10-11; Lk 3:2-3; Lk 4:42-44; 5:1, Lk 8:11-15; Jn 1:1, 14; Acts 4:31, 1 Thess 2:13, Heb 4:12-13, Heb 11:3.
Further, Christ and the Apostles taught by Oral Tradition. He also condemned ungodly traditions in His day (Mk 8:12-15, Mt. 15:1-9);
Luke 1:1-4 talks about the apostolic oral traditions which came before the NT.
There are several scriptural verses that attest to these traditions of theirs: Mk 16:15-16; Jn 20:30-31; 1 Cor 11:2; 1 Cor 11:22-23; 1 Cor 15:1-2; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Thess 3:6; 2 Tim 1:13; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Pet 1:25; 2 Pet 1:20-21; 2 Jn 12; 3 Jn 13.
When anyone uses the Bible alone, to attack Catholic beliefs, and excludes oral apostolic tradition, they do not have the fullness of the faith, nor the most accurate or complete interpretation of what the authors of the Bible meant. For further information on claiming that the Bible is the sole authority, see Catholic Truths on p. 61 - 62 - What Is Your Authority?
When you said, "Think about it people," I did, and I reject your teaching about Jesus’ manna as false.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity." - Maximus
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Rank: King Joined: 10/7/2009 Posts: 2,051
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Quote: Originally posted by dajcat on 04 October 2009
....The RCC teaches that we must go through a further cleansing of our sins in a place called Purgatory before we can enter heaven. Even if we confess our sins and are forgiven by God that is not enough. I believe the rationale behind that is we may die without confessing our last sin and God will not have a chance to forgive us. I could be wrong about that.
David’s teaching about the RCC is usually wrong. When he talks about Purgatory, it isn’t the RCC but God’s Word that refers to a purifying fire. The RCC teaches only from God’s Word. His Word is not only found in the Bible (see my post above), but also in Oral Tradition which the Apostles told us about in Scripture. How do we interpret God’s Word so that we know we are following His Will and not our self-will? The Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). Which Church is that? It has to be one that still exists from the time of the Apostles, since Christ promised it His divine protection and guidance.
There have been many Catholic teachings on Purgatory in the Religion Forum citing Scriptures and ancient writings.
Three such examples from the Bible are:
1) Luke 12:57-59--the need for settlement of debt in full, else the judge will imprison the debtor until he pays the last penny. This principle extends beyond this life and has to do with our relationship with God our Judge.
2) 1st Peter 3:19 and 4:6--Christ before His resurrection
went to preach to the dead. These were not in heaven, which wasn’t open yet, nor in hell, where preaching would not benefit them. So there is a third ntermediate state of imprisonment, a temporary state. This may have been Purgatory. No other explanation has been given which really satisfies.
3) Matt 12:32--Our Lord implies that there is forgiveness
both in this world and in the world to come. The souls in Heaven are in no need of forgiveness--they have it already. But Purgatory is a state in the world to come, where satisfaction for sins committed is made.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity." - Maximus
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Rank: Queen Joined: 9/30/2009 Posts: 759 Location: WV
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dajcat said: dcollom youare trying to rationalize your concept of heaven with the mind of man. That is impossible. It has been stated before that man originally (and it is not far fetched ) that there were indeed three heavens. The blue sky above us, the atmosphere immediatlly out of the pull of gravity and outerspace. I have forgotten the names but I know one was the tropisphere, ionisphere the second. In any event this is what Paul was talking about. It is believed even by Christians today that God’s dwelling place is in the third heaven, far from earth. It cannot be proved we will just have to wait and find out. -------------------------------------------------- I’m confused by your post: First you caution that using one’s knowledge and intelligence is invalid and impossible to apply to the concept of the location of heaven. Then you use modern radio propagation effects to separate heaven into parts. You refer to three, but there are actually more dynamic atmospheric reflective layers depending on sunspot cycle and radio frequency. These layers are very close to the earth when compared with the vastness of space. Could it be that something impossible to rationalize with the mind of man is simply impossible to believe as truth? Another confusion you state is "the atmosphere immediatlly out of the pull of gravity." This statement implies that the force gravity ceases at some close in distance from the earth. i.e. somewhere in the atmosphere. This is just not true and has been understood since the time of Newton. Gravity falls off as the square of distance between two mass objects: meaning, there is some residual effect of gravitational force with infinite separation of the material bodies. According to your post it’s location now in an undefined ’third heaven’ according to Paul. Could there be a ’fourth’ heaven or even a higher order heaven yet to be revealed by God? Now I ask again, where is God’s dwelling place? Where is heaven? Of course, the answer is simply to believe in a sub-divided heaven with a many roomed mansion somewhere out there and its location and existence will be revealed at my death; provided I pass the Test, of course. When I works, I works hard. When I sits and thinks, I goes to sleep.
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Rank: King Joined: 6/6/2008 Posts: 2,167
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yes it does D. the force of gravity is not in effect once you leave the earths atmosphere. That is why you can free float . i won’t go on with this discussion because I believe you want to argue for the sake of arguing alone I have given you biblical, scientific and Mormon references and Jerry has followed up with his scriptural reference. Have a good day.
dajcat
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Rank: Queen Joined: 9/30/2009 Posts: 759 Location: WV
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dajcat: NASA trains astronauts for the experience of free-fall by flying parabolic paths within the atmosphere. The astronauts are in free-fall (free-float) and don’t feel the force of gravity. Does this mean that gravity no longer exists? In fact, I can demonstrate "lack of gravity" in a single engine Cessna. I can also stand you on your head and you would think you were sitting comfoprtably in your living room chair until you opened your eyes and saw that up is down. This is called a wing-over beyond verticle. I suggest you get an elementary physics book that covers Newtonian Mechanics from the library and compare it with your flawed understanding of science. Einstein’s General Relativity which explains gravity would just be too hard for you. However, if you are really interested, I recommend "Gravitation" by Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne, and John Archibald Wheeler. Google these authors to see their credentials and authority. And No, I am not argueing for arguments sake. I don’t have time for that. I was originally trying to reconcile the Biblical location of Heaven with modern astronomy and how God, who resides so far out there, could possibly intervene in man’s affairs. If at every point on earth we point up to show where God is, is God sort of smeared out over the celstial sphere (for lack of better description). If so, how is it we are made in the image of God? I see many athletes cross themselves and look upward before playing a game, throwing a javelin, attempting a record pole-vault, or a football team praying for God to intervene and allow them to win a game. I also wonder why Germany lost two world wars even though they had "Gott Mit Uns" on their belt buckles. Or, do we think we will prevail over terrorism since we have "In God We Trust" on our money. Are they all trying to gain God’s favor for their personal benefit? Isn’t God just too busy for all this trivia? I have so many questions and so few answers even though I have read the Bible from cover to cover a couple of times. Don When I works, I works hard. When I sits and thinks, I goes to sleep.
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Rank: King Joined: 12/26/2005 Posts: 1,617
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Hi Don
We are taught that the governing star is Kolob, which is closest to the throne of God. Now the balance is strictly my own thought, but we know that each star, planet, and moon in the Milky way is held in place by gravitation. We know that the greatest source of energy and gravitation is at the core of the galaxy. Logic might dictate that the throne of God is at or near the core. Certainly with all knowledge God has the ability with means beyond our current understanding to be able to keep an eye on all of His creation.
Jerry
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Rank: King Joined: 9/27/2009 Posts: 4,676
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Rank: King  Joined: 8/5/2009 Posts: 2,761 Location: lost in state of complete confusion
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I have this theory wherein God exists in a plane where our entire solar system is but one atom and the entire Milky Way, and every galaxy, are each but one molecule...
So, you two Ds can chew on that one for a while.
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Rank: King Joined: 10/6/2009 Posts: 3,009 Location: Circleville,Ohio
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I saw an atom once it looked just like the milky way just for a prespective every know it all culture that ever existed seems to have disappeared let me see"I am so smart I am going to destroy myself as soon as possible"Seems to be the size of man.But one thing we know for sure and that is we know everything.I going back out into the Mojave now to find some more moon rocks.Care to buy any?God is great God is good God will not let you down that is something I cannot say about man.I left one of my wives with my best friend for 10 seconds one time.get the picture.It is not pretty.It destroys.Man destroys.God creates
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Rank: King  Joined: 8/29/2004 Posts: 2,889
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I’ll put my faith in people, thank you.
I trust my wife. I trust my folks. I even trust my brother and sister, even though we don’t exactly see eye to eye on things.
Without faith in at least some of your fellow Man, I’d have to agree with you that life would certainly suck.
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Rank: King Joined: 8/29/2004 Posts: 2,889
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Quote: Originally posted by MLawson on 07 October 2009
I have this theory wherein God exists in a plane where our entire solar system is but one atom and the entire Milky Way, and every galaxy, are each but one molecule...
So, you two Ds can chew on that one for a while.
No,no, no....the model has changed. Particles are out. The universe is a giant membrane. Different parts of it "vibrate" at different frequencies to produce effects we observe. We are one of countless universes, born in a collision in (and I’m not making this up--check out the current issues in physics these days) the 11th dimension. Each universe is formed with its own set of physical laws that are consistent within the membrane. YOU are just a bump on the giant universal membrane and will die to go back to the universal membrane. All is one. One encompasses all. Move over Buddha, physics has your number.
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Rank: Queen Joined: 9/30/2009 Posts: 759 Location: WV
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Lazy: Yup... There are universes where time does not exist. Also, I’m not sure of the differences between string theory and m-theory; yet. Too bad I left cosmology for rocket science -- the pay was so much better. Having faith and trust in people is the source of God’s love and its good results, I think. I’d rather trust first and verify later rather than reject always. When I works, I works hard. When I sits and thinks, I goes to sleep.
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