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Matthew and Messianic prophecies Options
cheriq
#1 Posted : Monday, December 24, 2018 2:00:16 PM

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Joined: 4/2/2013
Posts: 47,412

As I posted elsewhere - Matthew engages in more use of supposed OT prophecy to prove Jesus is the awaited, prophesied Messiah; and I have had problems FINDING that this prophecy he uses is relevant (or even there - at least in the versions we now have).

With a brief bit of research, I find that I'm not the only one to notice this. Here is a site that gets very involved in this.

https://www.xenos.org/es...ent-preliminary-analysis


"Many modern scholars would argue that Matthew also interprets the Old Testament using pesher when, for example, he applies Hosea 11:1 to Christ's sojourn in Egypt. If it is true that New Testament authors interpreted the Old Testament this way, then it is a little unsettling. The most pressing concern is that pesher, peshat and many later misrash techniques are fundamentally eisegetical. That is, these hermeneutical approaches are hostile to the notion of objective interpretation. If this is the case, then it brings into question the legitimacy of many critical NT uses of the OT. Ultimately, if NT authors did use rabbinical hermeneutics, then one must question the very authority of the New Testament in critical matters of faith."
Can we just admit we may have taken this 'anyone can grow up to be President' thing just a bit too far?

Remember back when Sarah Palin was the craziest person in politics? GOOD TIMES.

In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...nice try though.

I'm going to quit asking, "How dumb can you get?" People seem to be taking it as a challenge.

KEEP TALKING. I'm diagnosing you.







Sponsor  
 
cheriq
#2 Posted : Thursday, January 03, 2019 5:04:35 PM

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Joined: 4/2/2013
Posts: 47,412
“Matthew’s story of the Massacre of the Innocents by Herod the Great, because he was afraid of a child born in Bethlehem ‘to be King of the Jews’, is a myth allegedly fulfilling a prophecy by Jeremiah and mirroring history’s judgment of the great but evil potentate Herod, arising from many savage acts during the last years before his death in 4 BC” (1999:71). Was the slaughter of the innocents a tale, myth, folk-lore, or legend? Or was it a historical event?

Secular history is silent on this "event". The first century AD Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus does not record this event in any of his writings even though he does not hesitate to record MANY heinous actions of Herod the Great.

http://www.biblearchaeol...ary-Fiction.aspx#Article


Seems this "slaughter of the innocents" is a mechanism to use two pieces from the OT to "prove" Jesus was the messiah.

Piece #1

The "out of Egypt, I have called my son" is lifted from Hosea 11: 1

1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.

If you read the CONTEXT -- you will see that the scripture is supposed to be TO Israel, or the Jews in general. If is not likely that this messiah "son" would have been worshiping idols.

2 But the more I called them, the farther they departed from Me. They sacrificed to the Baals and burned incense to carved images.…

Piece #2

A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more (Jeremiah 31:15 NIV).

Ramah? Bethlehem? Proximity?






Can we just admit we may have taken this 'anyone can grow up to be President' thing just a bit too far?

Remember back when Sarah Palin was the craziest person in politics? GOOD TIMES.

In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...nice try though.

I'm going to quit asking, "How dumb can you get?" People seem to be taking it as a challenge.

KEEP TALKING. I'm diagnosing you.







cheriq
#3 Posted : Thursday, January 03, 2019 5:14:38 PM

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Joined: 4/2/2013
Posts: 47,412
Possible reason this killing COULD have happened, yet gone unreported by Josephus --

... the massacre might not have been as large as later church history records. The Martyrdom of Matthew states that 3,000 baby were slaughtered. The Byzantine liturgy places the number at 14,000 and the Syrian tradition says 64,000 innocent children were killed (Brown 1993:205). Yet Professor William F. Albright, the dean of American archaeology in the Holy Land, estimates that the population of Bethlehem at the time of Jesus’ birth to be about 300 people (Albright and Mann 1971:19). The number of male children, two years old or younger, would be about six or seven (Maier 1998:178, footnote 25). This would hardly be a newsworthy event in light of what else was going on at the time.

It is possible that a lot of tradition of the church is greatly magnified.
Can we just admit we may have taken this 'anyone can grow up to be President' thing just a bit too far?

Remember back when Sarah Palin was the craziest person in politics? GOOD TIMES.

In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...nice try though.

I'm going to quit asking, "How dumb can you get?" People seem to be taking it as a challenge.

KEEP TALKING. I'm diagnosing you.







ixoye_8
#4 Posted : Saturday, January 05, 2019 3:53:51 AM

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Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
RAMAH IS ABOUT 5 MI NORTH OF JERUSALEM
BETHLEHEM IS ABOUT 5 MILES SOUTH OF JERUSALEM ..

Rachel died and was buried in Ramah while travelling to Bethlehem ..

ixoye_8
#5 Posted : Saturday, January 05, 2019 4:26:32 AM

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Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
HEROD WOULD HAVE BEEN THOROUGH, AS TO NOT LET JESUS GET AWAY ..
I DOUBT IN THOSE TIMES IF A COUNT OF THE DEAD WAS EVEN MADE ..
PERHAPS HEROD NOT KNOWING WHERE THE MAGI FOUND JESUS, SLEW THE CHILDREN NOT ONLY IN, BUT ALSO NEAR BETHLEHEM ..
FYI: BOTH CITIES ARE SIGNIFICANT TO KING DAVID (Jesus' bloodline) ..

Bethlehem - perhaps 500 pop
0-2 years old by percent would be about 5% of the population ..
0-2 children - 25
0-2 male children - 12

surrounding 5 mi radius area - perhaps 5,000 pop
which equates to perhaps 120 more 0-2 male children ..

The connection between them is not one of proximity, but historical .. Genesis 35 tells us that Rachel died in childbirth on the road from Bethel to Bethlehem, and 1 Samuel appears to indicate that she was buried in the vicinity of Ramah. Thus, Matthew pictures Rachel weeping in her grave at Ramah over the horrific events taking place in Bethlehem—the destination she died looking toward.

Jeremiah 31:15-17. Verse 15 contains the lament quoted in Matthew, followed by the LORD's command to Rachel to stop weeping. Rachel is comforted with the promise that she will receive the "reward" of her "work," and her "children will return from the enemy's land."

In Jeremiah, Rachel weeps because her children are no more, but this is apparently the result of exile rather than infanticide. Jeremiah 40:1, which speaks of Jeremiah being found among the captives being held at Ramah prior to their deportation to Babylon. (symbolically interchangeable with Egypt) After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, Ramah became the staging area from which the Babylonians actually sent the people of Judah into exile. Jeremiah imagines Rachel weeping at Ramah because she is watching the deportation of her descendants from the very place where she is buried. In response, the LORD tells her not to weep, because her hope for the future lies in the eventual deliverance and restoration of her children.
cheriq
#6 Posted : Saturday, January 05, 2019 7:19:23 PM

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Joined: 4/2/2013
Posts: 47,412
It is interesting.

Here's the imagined dialog I'd put forth -

Mary: YOU HAD A DREAM AND WANT ME TO DO....WHAT???

Joseph: (Bows his head and mumbles something).

Mary: YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! DO YOU NOT REALIZE I JUST GAVE BIRTH???!!! DO YOU EXPECT ME TO WALK...OR TO RIDE ON THAT BOUNCY ANIMAL???

Joseph: But...God told me.

Mary: [sighs and bundles up the babe, mumbling something under her breath that sounds a lot like "crazy"].
Can we just admit we may have taken this 'anyone can grow up to be President' thing just a bit too far?

Remember back when Sarah Palin was the craziest person in politics? GOOD TIMES.

In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...nice try though.

I'm going to quit asking, "How dumb can you get?" People seem to be taking it as a challenge.

KEEP TALKING. I'm diagnosing you.







dajcat
#7 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 2:21:09 AM

Rank: King


Joined: 6/6/2008
Posts: 15,894
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was
led in a dream to flee to Egypt. I think she was well healed after two years. Herod didn't find out he had been hoodwinked by the Wisemen for about two years
later


watchman David
ixoye_8
#8 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 2:24:50 AM

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Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was
led in a dream to flee to Egypt.


THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..
ixoye_8
#9 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 2:42:21 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
ixoye_8 wrote:
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was
led in a dream to flee to Egypt.


THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..


Jesus’ Dedication
About 33 days after Jesus’ circumcision, or 40 days after His birth, His parents took Him to Jerusalem to be dedicated to the Lord. According to Leviticus 12:4-5, every male child was to be brought to the temple in Jerusalem for dedication to the Lord at the completion of a mother’s purification.

And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.” Luke 2:22-24 (NASB)


Once again His parents were being faithful to the Lord. His dedication to the Lord God involved the sacrifice of some animals.Leviticus 12:7music says that Joseph and Mary could have offered either a lamb or two turtle doves or two pigeons.

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female. “But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.” Lev. 12:7music (NASB)
ixoye_8
#10 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 2:49:08 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was
led in a dream to flee to Egypt.


THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..


Jesus’ Dedication
About 33 days after Jesus’ circumcision, or 40 days after His birth, His parents took Him to Jerusalem to be dedicated to the Lord. According to Leviticus 12:4-5, every male child was to be brought to the temple in Jerusalem for dedication to the Lord at the completion of a mother’s purification.

And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.” Luke 2:22-24 (NASB)


Once again His parents were being faithful to the Lord. His dedication to the Lord God involved the sacrifice of some animals.Leviticus 12:7music says that Joseph and Mary could have offered either a lamb or two turtle doves or two pigeons.

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female. “But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.” Lev. 12:7music (NASB)


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
When the days of her purification . . .—The primary idea of the law of Leviticus 12:1-6, would seem to have been that of witnessing to the taint of imperfection and sin attaching to every child of man, just as that of circumcision (its merely physical aspects being put aside) was that of the repression or control of one chief element of that sinfulness. Here neither was necessary; but the whole mystery of the birth was not as yet revealed to Mary, and therefore her act was simply one of devout obedience to the law under which she lived. The period of purification lasted for forty days from the birth, bringing the Feast of the Purification in our Church Calendar to February 2nd.
To present him to the Lord.—This, as the next verse shows, was only done according to the law of Exodus 13:2, when the firstborn child was a son.
ixoye_8
#11 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 2:51:29 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was
led in a dream to flee to Egypt.


THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..


Jesus’ Dedication
About 33 days after Jesus’ circumcision, or 40 days after His birth, His parents took Him to Jerusalem to be dedicated to the Lord. According to Leviticus 12:4-5, every male child was to be brought to the temple in Jerusalem for dedication to the Lord at the completion of a mother’s purification.

And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.” Luke 2:22-24 (NASB)


Once again His parents were being faithful to the Lord. His dedication to the Lord God involved the sacrifice of some animals.Leviticus 12:7music says that Joseph and Mary could have offered either a lamb or two turtle doves or two pigeons.

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female. “But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.” Lev. 12:7music (NASB)

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
When the days of her purification . . .—The primary idea of the law of Leviticus 12:1-6, would seem to have been that of witnessing to the taint of imperfection and sin attaching to every child of man, just as that of circumcision (its merely physical aspects being put aside) was that of the repression or control of one chief element of that sinfulness. Here neither was necessary; but the whole mystery of the birth was not as yet revealed to Mary, and therefore her act was simply one of devout obedience to the law under which she lived. The period of purification lasted for forty days from the birth, bringing the Feast of the Purification in our Church Calendar to February 2nd.
To present him to the Lord.—This, as the next verse shows, was only done according to the law of Exodus 13:2, when the firstborn child was a son.


Meyer's NT Commentary
Luke 2:22. Women after childbirth, when the child was a boy, were unclean for seven days, and had besides to stay at home thirty-three days more (at the birth of a girl these periods were doubled). Then they were bound to present in the temple an offering of purification, namely, a lamb of a year old as a burnt-offering, and a young pigeon or turtle-dove as a sin-offering; or else, if their means were too small for this, two turtle-doves or young pigeons, the one as a burnt-offering, the other as a sin-offering. See Leviticus 12:2
ixoye_8
#12 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 2:53:44 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was led in a dream to flee to Egypt.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..

Jesus’ Dedication
About 33 days after Jesus’ circumcision, or 40 days after His birth, His parents took Him to Jerusalem to be dedicated to the Lord. According to Leviticus 12:4-5, every male child was to be brought to the temple in Jerusalem for dedication to the Lord at the completion of a mother’s purification.

And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.” Luke 2:22-24 (NASB)


Once again His parents were being faithful to the Lord. His dedication to the Lord God involved the sacrifice of some animals.Leviticus 12:7music says that Joseph and Mary could have offered either a lamb or two turtle doves or two pigeons.

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female. “But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.” Lev. 12:7music (NASB)

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
When the days of her purification . . .—The primary idea of the law of Leviticus 12:1-6, would seem to have been that of witnessing to the taint of imperfection and sin attaching to every child of man, just as that of circumcision (its merely physical aspects being put aside) was that of the repression or control of one chief element of that sinfulness. Here neither was necessary; but the whole mystery of the birth was not as yet revealed to Mary, and therefore her act was simply one of devout obedience to the law under which she lived. The period of purification lasted for forty days from the birth, bringing the Feast of the Purification in our Church Calendar to February 2nd.
To present him to the Lord.—This, as the next verse shows, was only done according to the law of Exodus 13:2, when the firstborn child was a son.

Meyer's NT Commentary
Luke 2:22. Women after childbirth, when the child was a boy, were unclean for seven days, and had besides to stay at home thirty-three days more (at the birth of a girl these periods were doubled). Then they were bound to present in the temple an offering of purification, namely, a lamb of a year old as a burnt-offering, and a young pigeon or turtle-dove as a sin-offering; or else, if their means were too small for this, two turtle-doves or young pigeons, the one as a burnt-offering, the other as a sin-offering. See Leviticus 12:2


Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 2:22. κατὰ τὸν νόμον Μ. The law relating to women after confinement is contained in Leviticus 12—ἀνήγαγον: at the close of these forty days of purification His parents took Jesus up to Jerusalem. The Greek form of the name for Jerusalem, Ἰερο σόλυμα, occurs here and in a few other places in Lk. Ἱερουσαλήμ is the more common form.—παραστῆσαι, a word used by Lk. and St. Paul (Romans 12:1), in the sense of dedication. This act was performed in accordance with the legal conception that the first-born belonged to God, His priestly servants before the institution of the Levitical order (Numbers 8:18-19). J. Weiss suggests that the narrative is modelled on the story of the dedication of Samuel (1 Samuel 1:21-28).
ixoye_8
#13 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 2:57:42 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was led in a dream to flee to Egypt.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..

Jesus’ Dedication
About 33 days after Jesus’ circumcision, or 40 days after His birth, His parents took Him to Jerusalem to be dedicated to the Lord. According to Leviticus 12:4-5, every male child was to be brought to the temple in Jerusalem for dedication to the Lord at the completion of a mother’s purification.

And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.” Luke 2:22-24 (NASB)


Once again His parents were being faithful to the Lord. His dedication to the Lord God involved the sacrifice of some animals.Leviticus 12:7music says that Joseph and Mary could have offered either a lamb or two turtle doves or two pigeons.

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female. “But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.” Lev. 12:7music (NASB)

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
When the days of her purification . . .—The primary idea of the law of Leviticus 12:1-6, would seem to have been that of witnessing to the taint of imperfection and sin attaching to every child of man, just as that of circumcision (its merely physical aspects being put aside) was that of the repression or control of one chief element of that sinfulness. Here neither was necessary; but the whole mystery of the birth was not as yet revealed to Mary, and therefore her act was simply one of devout obedience to the law under which she lived. The period of purification lasted for forty days from the birth, bringing the Feast of the Purification in our Church Calendar to February 2nd.
To present him to the Lord.—This, as the next verse shows, was only done according to the law of Exodus 13:2, when the firstborn child was a son.

Meyer's NT Commentary
Luke 2:22. Women after childbirth, when the child was a boy, were unclean for seven days, and had besides to stay at home thirty-three days more (at the birth of a girl these periods were doubled). Then they were bound to present in the temple an offering of purification, namely, a lamb of a year old as a burnt-offering, and a young pigeon or turtle-dove as a sin-offering; or else, if their means were too small for this, two turtle-doves or young pigeons, the one as a burnt-offering, the other as a sin-offering. See Leviticus 12:2

Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 2:22. κατὰ τὸν νόμον Μ. The law relating to women after confinement is contained in Leviticus 12—ἀνήγαγον: at the close of these forty days of purification His parents took Jesus up to Jerusalem. The Greek form of the name for Jerusalem, Ἰερο σόλυμα, occurs here and in a few other places in Lk. Ἱερουσαλήμ is the more common form.—παραστῆσαι, a word used by Lk. and St. Paul (Romans 12:1), in the sense of dedication. This act was performed in accordance with the legal conception that the first-born belonged to God, His priestly servants before the institution of the Levitical order (Numbers 8:18-19). J. Weiss suggests that the narrative is modelled on the story of the dedication of Samuel (1 Samuel 1:21-28).


Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
The Presentation in the Temple
her purification] Rather, their purification. The reading αὐτῆς, ‘her’, of the Received Text is almost unsupported. All the Uncials read αὐτῶν, ‘their,’ except D, which probably by an oversight reads αὐτοῦ, ‘His.’ Strictly speaking, the child was never purified, but only the mother. The purification took place on the fortieth day after the Nativity, The feast of the Presentation was known in the Eastern Church as the Hypapantê.

according to the law of Moses] See this Law in Leviticus 12:2-4. Jesus was “made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem those that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons,” Galatians 4:4-5.
ixoye_8
#14 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 3:03:52 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was led in a dream to flee to Egypt.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..

Jesus’ Dedication
About 33 days after Jesus’ circumcision, or 40 days after His birth, His parents took Him to Jerusalem to be dedicated to the Lord. According to Leviticus 12:4-5, every male child was to be brought to the temple in Jerusalem for dedication to the Lord at the completion of a mother’s purification.

And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.” Luke 2:22-24 (NASB)


Once again His parents were being faithful to the Lord. His dedication to the Lord God involved the sacrifice of some animals.Leviticus 12:7music says that Joseph and Mary could have offered either a lamb or two turtle doves or two pigeons.

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female. “But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.” Lev. 12:7music (NASB)

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
When the days of her purification . . .—The primary idea of the law of Leviticus 12:1-6, would seem to have been that of witnessing to the taint of imperfection and sin attaching to every child of man, just as that of circumcision (its merely physical aspects being put aside) was that of the repression or control of one chief element of that sinfulness. Here neither was necessary; but the whole mystery of the birth was not as yet revealed to Mary, and therefore her act was simply one of devout obedience to the law under which she lived. The period of purification lasted for forty days from the birth, bringing the Feast of the Purification in our Church Calendar to February 2nd.
To present him to the Lord.—This, as the next verse shows, was only done according to the law of Exodus 13:2, when the firstborn child was a son.

Meyer's NT Commentary
Luke 2:22. Women after childbirth, when the child was a boy, were unclean for seven days, and had besides to stay at home thirty-three days more (at the birth of a girl these periods were doubled). Then they were bound to present in the temple an offering of purification, namely, a lamb of a year old as a burnt-offering, and a young pigeon or turtle-dove as a sin-offering; or else, if their means were too small for this, two turtle-doves or young pigeons, the one as a burnt-offering, the other as a sin-offering. See Leviticus 12:2

Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 2:22. κατὰ τὸν νόμον Μ. The law relating to women after confinement is contained in Leviticus 12—ἀνήγαγον: at the close of these forty days of purification His parents took Jesus up to Jerusalem. The Greek form of the name for Jerusalem, Ἰερο σόλυμα, occurs here and in a few other places in Lk. Ἱερουσαλήμ is the more common form.—παραστῆσαι, a word used by Lk. and St. Paul (Romans 12:1), in the sense of dedication. This act was performed in accordance with the legal conception that the first-born belonged to God, His priestly servants before the institution of the Levitical order (Numbers 8:18-19). J. Weiss suggests that the narrative is modelled on the story of the dedication of Samuel (1 Samuel 1:21-28).

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
The Presentation in the Temple
her purification] Rather, their purification. The reading αὐτῆς, ‘her’, of the Received Text is almost unsupported. All the Uncials read αὐτῶν, ‘their,’ except D, which probably by an oversight reads αὐτοῦ, ‘His.’ Strictly speaking, the child was never purified, but only the mother. The purification took place on the fortieth day after the Nativity, The feast of the Presentation was known in the Eastern Church as the Hypapantê.

according to the law of Moses] See this Law in Leviticus 12:2-4. Jesus was “made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem those that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons,” Galatians 4:4-5.


Pulpit Commentary
Verse 22. - When the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were accomplished. This period lasted forty days from the birth. The forty days, according to the date of the nativity accepted universally by the Catholic Church, would bring the Feast of the Purification to February 2.
dajcat
#15 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 3:08:11 AM

Rank: King


Joined: 6/6/2008
Posts: 15,894

it is only your supposition they went to Egypt first. Too much happening in too short a time.
1 they move to a house
2 Jesus is circumcised
3 The Wise Men visit
4 Herod gives the order (why 2 years)
5 they flee to Egypt
6 the return from Egypt (and stay where)
7 Jesus is dedicated on he 33 day

I suggest it happened this way:
1 JESUS IS BORN
2 SHORTLY AFTER THEY MOVE TO A HOUSE
3 JESUS IS CIRCUMCISED (8TH DAY)
4 A PERIOD OF TIME PASSES AND THEY ARE VISITED BY THE WISE MEN
5 JESUS IS DEDICATED (33 DAYS FROM BIRTH)
6 ANOTHER PEROD OF TIME PASSES AFTER THE WISE MEN LEAVE WITHOUT RETURNING TO HEROD'
7 2YEARS PASS FROM JESUS BIRTH AND HEROD GIVES THE ORDER (2 YEARS AND UNDER)
8 THEY FLEE TO EGYPT
9 HEROD DIES AND THEY RETURN FROM EGYPT.
10 THEY GO BACK TO NAZARETH


watchman David


ixoye_8
#16 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 3:09:24 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
ixoye_8 wrote:
dajcat wrote:
but you are thinking Cheriq that all that dialog took place relatively soon after His birth but in fact it was 2 years later when Joseph was led in a dream to flee to Egypt.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ..
IT TEACHES JOSEPH AND MARY HAD JESUS DEDICATED 33 DAYS AFTER BIRTH (according to the law) ..
HE WAS DEDICATED AFTER THEY RETURNED FROM EGYPT ..

Jesus’ Dedication
About 33 days after Jesus’ circumcision, or 40 days after His birth, His parents took Him to Jerusalem to be dedicated to the Lord. According to Leviticus 12:4-5, every male child was to be brought to the temple in Jerusalem for dedication to the Lord at the completion of a mother’s purification.

And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.” Luke 2:22-24 (NASB)


Once again His parents were being faithful to the Lord. His dedication to the Lord God involved the sacrifice of some animals.Leviticus 12:7music says that Joseph and Mary could have offered either a lamb or two turtle doves or two pigeons.

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female. “But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.” Lev. 12:7music (NASB)

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
When the days of her purification . . .—The primary idea of the law of Leviticus 12:1-6, would seem to have been that of witnessing to the taint of imperfection and sin attaching to every child of man, just as that of circumcision (its merely physical aspects being put aside) was that of the repression or control of one chief element of that sinfulness. Here neither was necessary; but the whole mystery of the birth was not as yet revealed to Mary, and therefore her act was simply one of devout obedience to the law under which she lived. The period of purification lasted for forty days from the birth, bringing the Feast of the Purification in our Church Calendar to February 2nd.
To present him to the Lord.—This, as the next verse shows, was only done according to the law of Exodus 13:2, when the firstborn child was a son.

Meyer's NT Commentary
Luke 2:22. Women after childbirth, when the child was a boy, were unclean for seven days, and had besides to stay at home thirty-three days more (at the birth of a girl these periods were doubled). Then they were bound to present in the temple an offering of purification, namely, a lamb of a year old as a burnt-offering, and a young pigeon or turtle-dove as a sin-offering; or else, if their means were too small for this, two turtle-doves or young pigeons, the one as a burnt-offering, the other as a sin-offering. See Leviticus 12:2

Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 2:22. κατὰ τὸν νόμον Μ. The law relating to women after confinement is contained in Leviticus 12—ἀνήγαγον: at the close of these forty days of purification His parents took Jesus up to Jerusalem. The Greek form of the name for Jerusalem, Ἰερο σόλυμα, occurs here and in a few other places in Lk. Ἱερουσαλήμ is the more common form.—παραστῆσαι, a word used by Lk. and St. Paul (Romans 12:1), in the sense of dedication. This act was performed in accordance with the legal conception that the first-born belonged to God, His priestly servants before the institution of the Levitical order (Numbers 8:18-19). J. Weiss suggests that the narrative is modelled on the story of the dedication of Samuel (1 Samuel 1:21-28).

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
The Presentation in the Temple
her purification] Rather, their purification. The reading αὐτῆς, ‘her’, of the Received Text is almost unsupported. All the Uncials read αὐτῶν, ‘their,’ except D, which probably by an oversight reads αὐτοῦ, ‘His.’ Strictly speaking, the child was never purified, but only the mother. The purification took place on the fortieth day after the Nativity, The feast of the Presentation was known in the Eastern Church as the Hypapantê.

according to the law of Moses] See this Law in Leviticus 12:2-4. Jesus was “made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem those that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons,” Galatians 4:4-5.

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 22. - When the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were accomplished. This period lasted forty days from the birth. The forty days, according to the date of the nativity accepted universally by the Catholic Church, would bring the Feast of the Purification to February 2.


Benson Commentary
Luke 2:22-24. When the days of her purification were accomplished — “It appears, from Leviticus 12:1-6, that for the first seven days, every woman who had borne a child, was considered as unclean in so great a degree, that whoever touched or conversed with her was polluted. For thirty-three days more, she was still, though in an inferior degree, unclean, because she could not all that time partake in the solemnities of public worship. At the conclusion of this term, she was commanded to bring certain sacrifices to the temple, by the offering of which the stain laid on her by the law was wiped off, and she restored to all the purity and cleanness she had before. This was the law of the purification after bearing a son. But for a daughter, the time of separation was double; the first term being fourteen days, and the second sixty-six; in all eighty days before she could approach the sanctuary. Now as Jesus was circumcised, though perfectly free from sin, so his mother submitted to the purifications prescribed by the law, notwithstanding she was free from the pollutions common in other births. It was evident, indeed, that she was a mother, but her miraculous conception was not generally known.” They brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord — Because the law required that he should be presented in the temple at the end of forty days from his birth, and that the usual offerings should be made, his parents would find it more convenient to go up with him from Bethlehem, where he was born, at the distance of six miles only, than, after Mary’s recovery, to carry him first to Nazareth, which was a great way from Jerusalem. We may, therefore, reasonably enough suppose that they tarried in Bethlehem all the days of her purification, and that from Bethlehem they went straightway to Jerusalem. Here, entering the temple, the sacrifices prescribed for the purification of women, after child-bearing, were offered for Mary, who, according to custom, waited in the outer court till the service respecting her was performed. As it is written, Every male that openeth the womb, &c. — See this explained in the note on Exodus 12:2. And to offer a sacrifice, a pair of turtle doves, &c. — This was the offering required from the poor, Leviticus 12:6; Leviticus 12:8. Those in better circumstances were commanded to bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt-offering, and a turtle-dove, or a young pigeon, for a sin-offering. It is evident, from the offering they made, that although Joseph and Mary were of the seed royal, they were in very mean circumstances. The evangelist mentions the presentation of the child to the Lord before the offering of the sacrifice for the mother’s purification; but in fact this preceded the presentation, because, till it was performed, the mother could not enter the temple; accordingly Luke himself introduces both the parents as presenting Jesus.
dajcat
#17 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 3:21:19 AM

Rank: King


Joined: 6/6/2008
Posts: 15,894
ADMITTEDLY HE WAS DEDICATED ON THE 33RD DAY BUT THAT PROVES NOTHING ABOUT YOUR CLAIM THAT IT WAS DONE AFER THEIR
RETURN FROM EGYPT


watchman David
ixoye_8
#18 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 3:25:20 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
dajcat wrote:
it is only your supposition they went to Egypt first.


WRONG .. IT IS ONLY YOUR SUPPOSITION THAT HE WAS NOT ..
THE BIBLE AND THE COMMENTATORS ALL AGREE WITH HE CAME BACK FROM EGYPT AND THEN WAS DEDICATED AT 40 DAYS OLD ..


Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.
Mat 2:11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
Mat 2:12 And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
Mat 2:13 Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”
Mat 2:14 So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt.

Mat 2:19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said,

Mat 2:20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.”

FYI: HEROD DIED IN 4 BC (the same year Jesus was born Whistle

Luk 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a [fn]manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Luk 2:21 And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
Luk 2:22 And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord



ixoye_8
#19 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 3:31:58 AM

Rank: King



Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 103,633
THE MAGI DID NOT RETURN AND HEROD THEN TRIED TO KILL JESUS ..
THEY LEFT FOR EGYPT IN A HURRY (southern Judea was part of Egypt until 106 AD) ..
AND THEN CAME BACK TO DEDICATE JESUS WHEN 40 DAYS OLD ACCORDING TO THE LAW !!!

OF COURSE THERE WAS ENOUGH TIME .. I HAVE SHOWN YOU THIS BEFORE .. READ YOUR BIBLE ..
cheriq
#20 Posted : Sunday, January 06, 2019 3:28:59 PM

Rank: King



Joined: 4/2/2013
Posts: 47,412
ixoye_8 wrote:
THE MAGI DID NOT RETURN AND HEROD THEN TRIED TO KILL JESUS ..
THEY LEFT FOR EGYPT IN A HURRY (southern Judea was part of Egypt until 106 AD) ..
AND THEN CAME BACK TO DEDICATE JESUS WHEN 40 DAYS OLD ACCORDING TO THE LAW !!!

OF COURSE THERE WAS ENOUGH TIME .. I HAVE SHOWN YOU THIS BEFORE .. READ YOUR BIBLE ..


Is there any other 1st century source that gives this account? Seems to me Matthew got it 2nd or 3rd or even 4th hand. We have folklore NOW, why would that era be any different?


Can we just admit we may have taken this 'anyone can grow up to be President' thing just a bit too far?

Remember back when Sarah Palin was the craziest person in politics? GOOD TIMES.

In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...nice try though.

I'm going to quit asking, "How dumb can you get?" People seem to be taking it as a challenge.

KEEP TALKING. I'm diagnosing you.







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